3TC Turbo ?'s

Webers, Cam selection and Ignition upgrades.

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WarWagn
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3TC Turbo ?'s

Post by WarWagn »

I'm getting ready to start my Turbo build in my 1980 Corolla Wagon. I'm looking for power in the 400whp range for now, and may go to 500 in the future. I've searched quite a bit for info on turbocharging the 3TC, but they all seem to redirect to the old 3tcgarage.

As far as long block goes it will obviously be fully forged. My only concern is the only connecting rods I have found are Eagle H-beams. Are they capable of 400+ whp, or is there another manufacturer I should look at? I will also be using Wiseco 8.5:1 Pistons (possibly 10:1 on e85). Should I mess with porting the head or installing larger valves or leave it be?

I'm sure more questions will arrive as I go on concerning drive train. For now the plan is a w-series trans and ford 9". Any help is appreciated, thanks!
1980 TE72 Wagon.

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hemilove
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Re: 3TC Turbo ?'s

Post by hemilove »

Dude you go low compression on boosted applications and eagle h beams are bad ass rods. Another thing look around on the forum bro there's a lot of us guys messing around with turbos so feel free to pm or ask.
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WarWagn
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Re: 3TC Turbo ?'s

Post by WarWagn »

hemilove wrote:Dude you go low compression on boosted applications and eagle h beams are bad ass rods. Another thing look around on the forum bro there's a lot of us guys messing around with turbos so feel free to pm or ask.
Low compression, as in? 8.5:1 on 93 octane is a fairly low figure, same with 10:1 on E85.
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NME308
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Re: 3TC Turbo ?'s

Post by NME308 »

WarWagn wrote:Low compression, as in? 8.5:1 on 93 octane is a fairly low figure, same with 10:1 on E85.
No my friend you have been reading yellowbullet or theturboforums too much... ;)
In the real world low compression is 7:1 and then your 93 octane fuel engine can make 400rwhp with stock Toyota rods and non forged factory pistons.

My blow through pump gas 7:1 compression 3TC spat the dummy with 380rwhp thanks to an ebay fibre head gasket that should have been removed long before in hindsite... The whole engine was a test grenade with factory N/A 3SGE BEAMS pistons, factory 3TC rods, reground factory cam to 230 intake and 219 exahust, untouched stock standard 3TC head, and an ebay gasket kit. With a BorgWarner S200 turbo and a 650cfm holley for intake, and just water meth for intercooling it took 3 years of abuse to call it quits. :twisted:

There are plenty of others pushing more hp than I did with similar list of parts on similar low compression and pump fuel.

Keep reading the high compression pump fuel builds and you will see time after time the superlatives such as: I just went from 8.5:1 compression up to 10:1 compression and the difference on the same 10psi boost is incredible!!! It is soooo much more responsive and has soooooooo much more power!!! I cant wait to turn up the boost and see what she really has! Rarely will you ever see more to the story telling how much more power was made with the much anticipated increase in boost. Usually when it is documented it is cracked ringlands or worse and time for a rebuild and look for a better tuner...

It is a pressure and heat thing. The more compression you start with the less boost you can add to reach the critical cylinder temp/pressure for a given fuel octane. Each point of compression is typically worth around 3% more power and torque so the initial engine 'feel' and time to torque is better for quicker actual time to boost. The less compression you give the engine the more boost you can use to cram the cylinder with fuel and air to reach the same critical cylinder temp/pressure for the same given fuel octane. More fuel and air for the same cylinder pressure and temp is more hp and torque. The relationship between boost and static compression is an exponential one i.e. exponentially more boost can be used to cram compressed molecules into a lower compression cylinder than a higher compression cylinder thus the loss of 3% hp and torque for each dropped point in compression is vastly surpassed. Compressing more molecules tighter outside the engine is far more rewarding than compressing fewer molecules to the same point inside the engine. ;)

There are of course examples of big name tuners with high compression turbo engines making plenty of mumbo but dollar for dollar low compression is capable of far more horsepower for A] the same octane fuel, and B] the same strength internal engine components.

As for E85 I am going to use if for my current 3TC build with 6.3:1 compression and plan on creeping up from the 38psi boost I left off last time on pump fuel to around 50psi due to better knock control of ethanol. This will still be a daily driver as low compression engines are nowhere near as 'doggy' to drive as people claim. A bit like attempting to make a high comp / high boost turbo engine live at all the quality of a low compression engine for driveability comes down to the tune.

Cheers,
Jason
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WarWagn
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Re: 3TC Turbo ?'s

Post by WarWagn »

Thanks for the response, plenty of good info there! It blows my mind to see compression numbers that low, I have never come across that.
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Mazota TE51
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Re: 3TC Turbo ?'s

Post by Mazota TE51 »

As far as the rearend you can also use the ford 8.8 rear as it is slightly lighter and much cheaper than a 9". Unless you already have a 9" of course. Good Luck on your build.
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WarWagn
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Re: 3TC Turbo ?'s

Post by WarWagn »

Mazota TE51 wrote:As far as the rearend you can also use the ford 8.8 rear as it is slightly lighter and much cheaper than a 9". Unless you already have a 9" of course. Good Luck on your build.
I've noticed the 8.8 is a popular rear end for these cars. Not tough to find one either with all the Mustangs around.
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Toyota1515
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Re: 3TC Turbo ?'s

Post by Toyota1515 »

Bad thing about them 8.8 is that u will have to spend twice if you want to get rid of the C-Clips that are just a POS, with a MOPAR 8.75 from an old 70 or earlier Dodge u can do narrow it and keep the housing ends and the same axles and just change the ring and pinion and trow all u want at it it will stand anything on stock configuration!
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skellington
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Re: 3TC Turbo ?'s

Post by skellington »

Great info NME308. I would love to build a junkyard low comp 2/3tc turbo engine. I have a few questions about turboing an engine that I figure I’d post here rather than start a new thread.

1, What year Celica can I find the correct 3SGE pistons that will work best with 2/3tc rods? and what will I have to do to make the wrist pin work?

2, Are 2tc and 3tc connecting rods the same length?

3, With 2tc block, 3tc crank, 3SGE pistons, stiff valve springs, a t5 Garrett turbo and intercooler (from a 4 cyl. Volvo), a Weber 32/36DGEV (on stock manifold), running 91 octane fuel,
-Where would my compression be?
-About how much boost can it run?
-Estimate power?
-What would you recommend improving?
The reason I ask is because I wonder if would be worth my while building something like this, or swapping an Altezza engine and trans.
NME308
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Re: 3TC Turbo ?'s

Post by NME308 »

skellington wrote:Great info NME308. I would love to build a junkyard low comp 2/3tc turbo engine. I have a few questions about turboing an engine that I figure I’d post here rather than start a new thread.

1, What year Celica can I find the correct 3SGE pistons that will work best with 2/3tc rods? and what will I have to do to make the wrist pin work?

You have a choice of a number of different factory pistons for a junker build actually! 3SGTE pistons from the ST165 ST185 ST205 GT4 Celicas or their Caldina brothers. 3SGE BEAMS pistons from the Altezza engines - note here the non BEAMS 3SGE engines from many 90's Celicas have domed pistons which are unsuitable. 2JZGTE pistons are good. Certain Mitsubishi 4G63 turbo engines have pistons with the correct 22mm wrist pin also.
I had the 3TC rods machined for floating pin so I could use the late model ones from the doner engine as I felt it could be less prone to nipping up with heat stress. I believe the stock 3TC pins could be used if desired.


2, Are 2tc and 3tc connecting rods the same length?

Yes they are both the same length.

3, With 2tc block, 3tc crank, 3SGE pistons, stiff valve springs, a t5 Garrett turbo and intercooler (from a 4 cyl. Volvo), a Weber 32/36DGEV (on stock manifold), running 91 octane fuel,
-Where would my compression be?
-About how much boost can it run?
-Estimate power?
-What would you recommend improving?
The reason I ask is because I wonder if would be worth my while building something like this, or swapping an Altezza engine and trans.

As long as they are the non domed BEAMS pistons or turbo 3SGTE items you will be around 7:1 compression.
Boost? I know 35psi is achievable!
Power? Your Volvo/Garrett turbo I assume would possibly be the limit here as I'm going to hazard a guess it may pull you up around 15-20psi??? You should be looking for around 180 to 230rwhp at those boost levels depending on turbo efficiency...
If you change out that turbo one day for a bigger item, take care of the intercooling (water meth is my favourite), then a junker build can go 400rwhp.
Improving? I'd slip a mild cam in if you were not already thinking of it (regrind or 2nd hand all good). Something around the 220 to 230 degree mark with a 110+ degree lobe separation is where I like it so as to work well with stock head and give great driveability.

You will probably end up with around the same horsepower as the BEAMS Altezza swap going with a junker turbo build but you will have GADS more torque! Then later when you get bored and slip on a bigger turbo then you can just keep winding it up. :D
In the end you will have to choose your preferred weapon. Take it turn key reliable with an efi high revving BEAMS engine with good power (much better power to weight in an old corolla than the altezza doner). The 3TC turbo has very cheap power potential but is a much more hands on process and especially if you go blow through turbo since not too many people (tuner shops) out there understand them.

Cheers,
Jason
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