carbs vs efi

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hachicoupe
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:43 am

carbs vs efi

Post by hachicoupe »

Alright, so recently I have read alot of debates about it recently and have been involved in a couple of my own. My buddy insists that you can make more power for less money on efi and that it is easier to tune. But having dual solex addhe 40s, I completely disagree. I think the bang for the buck is with carbs. And I really don't see how tuning can be any easier than turning a screw...

What is your guy's take on the subject?

P.s. we are talking n/a
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Foxau2
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:26 pm
Location: Clearfield, UT

Re: carbs vs efi

Post by Foxau2 »

For me, I have to agree with the pro EFI side of it. It is easier to tune for me. I had dual sidedrafts on my 18RG and they never ran right. I switched out jets and throats and all sorts of things and they just still never ran right. Sometimes they would be OK, then the weather would change and I could barely make the things run. Maybe I'm a bit biased because they weren't in tip top shape to begin with. But no matter what I tried they just wouldn't behave. I haven't yet put EFI on my 18RG, but it's in the works.

I do however have EFI in my 77 TE51 with factory 2TC. I ran it on the factory carb for 6 years, and every spring I would take it to my mechanic and he would rebuild it/give it a tune up and it would run pretty good for a while. I was pretty impressed with how well he could make it run. No matter what I tried personally I couldn't ever get it back in good shape without taking it to him. It was never a fast car (of course not with a 2TC) but it ran well. It didn't really have problems on the freeway, but accelerating past 65 was pretty slow. I would often have trouble with the points in the distributor but my mechanic was usually able to take care of those very quickly.

I now have a 2TGEU intake manifold on the same tired factory motor and the difference is absolutely astonishing! It has a ton more pick up and go now. I can get on the freeway and accelerate up to 85 with no problems. While on the freeway if I press the gas I can actually feel the car accelerating. With the carb you just had to take it on faith that the car would eventually speed up.

With the carb the best gas mileage I ever got was 33 MPG, but it would average around 27-28, which still wasn't too bad. Now that I'm on EFI I consistently get 34 MPG on the freeway.

As far as the tuning goes it's a lot easier for me to tune with a laptop and get a visual representation of what I just changed. I have EDIS for ignition now so I never have to worry about points/rotor/dizzy cap. If I want to change the advance I simply change that cell and it's done. Same with fuel. I can lean it out in the cruise area of the fuel map and it saves on gas. But in the areas where I would be stomping on the pedal I make it rich and I get the best power out of it. The ECU automatically controls the mixture to make it richer when the coolant is cold exactly like a choke does on a carb. That's completely definable how much richer you want it to be. When I still had the factory carb it would start right up on the coldest mornings, but I absolutely couldn't drive it until it had warmed up for a couple minutes. If I tried to drive it straight away when cold it would lurch and buck then die. With the EFI even when it's 0 degrees Fahrenheit like we had for several weeks in a row here in Utah, it would start up immediately, and I could drive off right away.

For me there is no question whatsoever about it that EFI is better than carbs. That may not be the case for everyone though. I'm an engineer by trade so fancy electronics and programs come naturally for me.

FOr me the choice wasn't about power. It was about driveability. I needed to be able to rely on my car regardless of how hot or cold it was or whether I had driven to a higher or lower elevation. All of those things tend to make carbs freak out.
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hachicoupe
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:43 am

Re: carbs vs efi

Post by hachicoupe »

Foxau2 wrote:For me, I have to agree with the pro EFI side of it. It is easier to tune for me. I had dual sidedrafts on my 18RG and they never ran right. I switched out jets and throats and all sorts of things and they just still never ran right. Sometimes they would be OK, then the weather would change and I could barely make the things run. Maybe I'm a bit biased because they weren't in tip top shape to begin with. But no matter what I tried they just wouldn't behave. I haven't yet put EFI on my 18RG, but it's in the works.

I do however have EFI in my 77 TE51 with factory 2TC. I ran it on the factory carb for 6 years, and every spring I would take it to my mechanic and he would rebuild it/give it a tune up and it would run pretty good for a while. I was pretty impressed with how well he could make it run. No matter what I tried personally I couldn't ever get it back in good shape without taking it to him. It was never a fast car (of course not with a 2TC) but it ran well. It didn't really have problems on the freeway, but accelerating past 65 was pretty slow. I would often have trouble with the points in the distributor but my mechanic was usually able to take care of those very quickly.

I now have a 2TGEU intake manifold on the same tired factory motor and the difference is absolutely astonishing! It has a ton more pick up and go now. I can get on the freeway and accelerate up to 85 with no problems. While on the freeway if I press the gas I can actually feel the car accelerating. With the carb you just had to take it on faith that the car would eventually speed up.

With the carb the best gas mileage I ever got was 33 MPG, but it would average around 27-28, which still wasn't too bad. Now that I'm on EFI I consistently get 34 MPG on the freeway.

As far as the tuning goes it's a lot easier for me to tune with a laptop and get a visual representation of what I just changed. I have EDIS for ignition now so I never have to worry about points/rotor/dizzy cap. If I want to change the advance I simply change that cell and it's done. Same with fuel. I can lean it out in the cruise area of the fuel map and it saves on gas. But in the areas where I would be stomping on the pedal I make it rich and I get the best power out of it. The ECU automatically controls the mixture to make it richer when the coolant is cold exactly like a choke does on a carb. That's completely definable how much richer you want it to be. When I still had the factory carb it would start right up on the coldest mornings, but I absolutely couldn't drive it until it had warmed up for a couple minutes. If I tried to drive it straight away when cold it would lurch and buck then die. With the EFI even when it's 0 degrees Fahrenheit like we had for several weeks in a row here in Utah, it would start up immediately, and I could drive off right away.

For me there is no question whatsoever about it that EFI is better than carbs. That may not be the case for everyone though. I'm an engineer by trade so fancy electronics and programs come naturally for me.

FOr me the choice wasn't about power. It was about driveability. I needed to be able to rely on my car regardless of how hot or cold it was or whether I had driven to a higher or lower elevation. All of those things tend to make carbs freak out.
I have had no issues with drivability. I have a 3tc cammed with a full msd ignition though. I have plenty of power for what it is. It always fires right up no matter the weather. And as soon as I step on the throttle, it goes. It fired up in below zero weather on the first crank with 3 spun rod bearings and 6 bent pushrods. As for mileage on the highway I averaged 33. And on the trip from southern Missouri up to Nebraska I got 36.4! Power and fuel mileage rely alot on the engine tune. I have yet to check the mileage since I rebuilt it, but I went to hotter plugs and dumping more fuel. So I assume that my mileage will fall some now.
73te27
Posts: 174
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Location: central oahu

Re: carbs vs efi

Post by 73te27 »

Just so you know where Im coming from, I had one car with a 3tc efi set up and had no clue how to approach it so i sold the set up. I dont even own a laptop. On the other hand, I had over 20 sets of duals since my first set in 1981. I had mikuni/solex 40/44, dellorto 40/45/48 and weber 38/40/45. I have owned multiple sets of each except the 38 dcoes I only had the one set. To say that all you need to do to tune duals is turn a screwdriver is like saying I would be a good pharmacist because I can count fast. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. Just because you own a set that runs well doesnt mean that you know anymore about them then my mom. Duals are a PITA to get right but I love them. I once had 4 daily drivers all running duals. I probably had 7 or 8 sets at once. I think I have 5 sets right now. Out of all those sets, 40 mikuni/solex were my least favorite followed by 44 mikunis. Dont like em and I could always get weber or dellortos to pull harder.

That being said, if I had to start all over, I would probably go EFI. I have probably a thousand dollars of jets, emulsion tubes and chokes in the garage and I will probably buy more in the future. Tuning takes a lot of time and thats something I dont want to put in as much lately. From what I hear, no first hand knowledge, tuning is quicker with a laptop then my old trusty trial and error butt dyno.
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mikealike
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Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:29 pm
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Re: carbs vs efi

Post by mikealike »

73te27 wrote:Just so you know where Im coming from, I had one car with a 3tc efi set up and had no clue how to approach it so i sold the set up. I dont even own a laptop. On the other hand, I had over 20 sets of duals since my first set in 1981. I had mikuni/solex 40/44, dellorto 40/45/48 and weber 38/40/45. I have owned multiple sets of each except the 38 dcoes I only had the one set. To say that all you need to do to tune duals is turn a screwdriver is like saying I would be a good pharmacist because I can count fast. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. Just because you own a set that runs well doesnt mean that you know anymore about them then my mom. Duals are a PITA to get right but I love them. I once had 4 daily drivers all running duals. I probably had 7 or 8 sets at once. I think I have 5 sets right now. Out of all those sets, 40 mikuni/solex were my least favorite followed by 44 mikunis. Dont like em and I could always get weber or dellortos to pull harder.

That being said, if I had to start all over, I would probably go EFI. I have probably a thousand dollars of jets, emulsion tubes and chokes in the garage and I will probably buy more in the future. Tuning takes a lot of time and thats something I dont want to put in as much lately. From what I hear, no first hand knowledge, tuning is quicker with a laptop then my old trusty trial and error butt dyno.

Carbs are a thing of the past, they have there place in time. I love F/I do to the ease of tuning and no worries about change in elevation. I made alot more power with fuel injection than carbs and the deliverable of fuel with the injection system is alot better hands down. Its all in what your looking for in a fuel system. JM2C
Tuner, Builder and Racer. Hit me up for all you needs 2/3tc, 3SGTE or 2RZ custom fabbed parts.
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1.8te27
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:48 am

Re: carbs vs efi

Post by 1.8te27 »

73te27 wrote:Just so you know where Im coming from, I had one car with a 3tc efi set up and had no clue how to approach it so i sold the set up. I dont even own a laptop. On the other hand, I had over 20 sets of duals since my first set in 1981. I had mikuni/solex 40/44, dellorto 40/45/48 and weber 38/40/45. I have owned multiple sets of each except the 38 dcoes I only had the one set. To say that all you need to do to tune duals is turn a screwdriver is like saying I would be a good pharmacist because I can count fast. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. Just because you own a set that runs well doesnt mean that you know anymore about them then my mom. Duals are a PITA to get right but I love them. I once had 4 daily drivers all running duals. I probably had 7 or 8 sets at once. I think I have 5 sets right now. Out of all those sets, 40 mikuni/solex were my least favorite followed by 44 mikunis. Dont like em and I could always get weber or dellortos to pull harder.

That being said, if I had to start all over, I would probably go EFI. I have probably a thousand dollars of jets, emulsion tubes and chokes in the garage and I will probably buy more in the future. Tuning takes a lot of time and thats something I dont want to put in as much lately. From what I hear, no first hand knowledge, tuning is quicker with a laptop then my old trusty trial and error butt dyno.

I've only had a Holley 350 on my car which is a lot more of a simple setup compared to duals. Parts are really cheap but I have a hard time getting it to run good. It is not as easy as turning screws and in my opinion if that was the case I think more people would run carbs vs efi.
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toyotero2dend
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Location: New York

Re: carbs vs efi

Post by toyotero2dend »

I like carbs cause I can mess with it but efi I know jack about it lol,,I think one has to be knowledgeable to be able to work with computer and programs to tune efi,,,,I didn't go efi on my build because of the cost.,,,I love a set of webers on the 3tc ;)
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mikealike
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Re: carbs vs efi

Post by mikealike »

toyotero2dend wrote:I like carbs cause I can mess with it but efi I know jack about it lol,,I think one has to be knowledgeable to be able to work with computer and programs to tune efi,,,,I didn't go efi on my build because of the cost.,,,I love a set of webers on the 3tc ;)
I started with carbs also and it just wasn't the ticket at the time. I started out with an easy to tune system that I learned in about two hours. If I can do it so can you. It just takes alittle time and an understanding to get it.
Tuner, Builder and Racer. Hit me up for all you needs 2/3tc, 3SGTE or 2RZ custom fabbed parts.
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Toyota1515
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Re: carbs vs efi

Post by Toyota1515 »

I can do both, is up to what the customer wants LOL!
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snapshift03
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:16 am
Location: south africa

Re: carbs vs efi

Post by snapshift03 »

When I started building my car it was running on 2 dhla downdraft dellortos with a blow through system. Plumbing was a nightmare and getting the enrichment right was horrible. Thats when I bit the bullet and switched over to efi and its awesome!! Once you get the hang of it the setup is easy. It allows for a much bigger and more accurate tuning spectrum!!

So yes if you're after nostalgia then go carb but for power consistency and driveability efi wins hands down
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